Episode 17: Your Relationship Isn’t the Problem with Julie Hall
Your Relationship Isn’t the Problem: The Pattern Underneath the Conflict Might Be
Welcome to another episode of The Truth About Healing Podcast.
How many times have you had the same argument with your partner?
Maybe the topic changes, but the argument somehow ends up in the exact same place.
One person pushes harder because they desperately want to resolve it. The other shuts down, avoids, or needs space. The more one person pursues, the more the other withdraws. Then both walk away feeling misunderstood.
What if your relationship isn’t the problem in the way you think it is?
In Episode 17, Dana sits down with licensed marriage and family therapist Julie Hall to talk about what is often happening underneath relationship conflict.
Julie specializes in relationships, couples therapy, trauma, anxiety, depression, eating disorders, and fertility-related mental health. She brings an attachment-focused and trauma-informed lens to helping couples understand not just what they're fighting about, but the deeper relational patterns driving the conflict.
As Julie explains, couples often get stuck talking about what's happening on the surface when the real questions underneath sound more like:
Do I matter to you?
Can I trust you?
Am I safe with you?
Will you choose me?
Those questions can change the way we understand an argument.
Because sometimes the fight isn't really about the dishes, the schedule, the text message, or who said what.
It's about what those moments activate underneath.
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Episode Highlights
In this episode, Dana and Julie explore:
Why Julie left a decade-long career in tech to become a therapist
How her own infertility experience changed her relationship with therapy
The cultural stigma that initially made seeking mental health support difficult
Why feeling safe with a therapist can matter before you ever have the "right" words
How relationships can activate some of our oldest attachment wounds
Why couples often argue about surface-level issues instead of what's happening underneath
The questions beneath conflict, including "Do I matter?", "Am I safe?", and "Can I trust you?"
How family history and generational patterns can influence adult relationships
Why behaviors that were once protective can become ineffective in safer relationships
The pursuer-withdrawer relationship pattern
How both pursuing and withdrawing may be attempts to preserve connection
Why nervous system activation can make connection difficult during conflict
How partners can learn to co-regulate
Why Julie encourages couples to "clean up your side of the street"
Why humility can be essential when taking responsibility for your part in a relationship
The difference between self-compassion and giving yourself a pass
Why accountability can become more sustainable when it isn't driven entirely by self-criticism
How something unfamiliar can feel dangerous to the nervous system even when it is simply uncomfortable
Why Dana and Julie believe healing happens both within ourselves and through relationships
Memorable Quote
"Clean up your side of the street." - Julie Hall
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Further Learning & Resources
Discover journals, workbooks, consultation resources, and recommended tools designed to support both personal healing and professional growth.
EMDR Therapy Progress Journal
The EMDR Therapy Progress Journal helps clients track healing progress, identify
patterns, document insights, and stay connected to their therapeutic journey between sessions.
Perfect for:
EMDR clients
Trauma recovery work
Reflection between sessions
Tracking healing milestones
EMDR Coach Treatment Planning Workbook
Designed specifically for EMDR therapists, this workbook helps simplify case
conceptualization, target sequencing, and treatment planning.
Ideal for:
EMDR-trained clinicians
EMDR consultation groups
Organizing complex cases
Strengthening treatment planning skills
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The Truth About Healing Podcast is recorded at Cayivisions, where the focus goes beyond cameras, lighting, and audio.
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Cayivisions handles the technical side so the conversation can stay the priority.
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Meet Our Host Dana Carretta-Stein, LMHC
Dana Carretta-Stein is an LMHC, EMDRIA Approved Consultant, founder of The EMDR Coach, and founder of Peaceful Living Mental Health Counseling (PLMHC).
Her work focuses on trauma-informed therapy, nervous system healing, EMDR therapy, attachment patterns, and helping people understand the deeper roots behind emotional and behavioral patterns.
Dana blends neuroscience, trauma-informed education, and direct honesty in a way that helps listeners feel both validated and challenged to think differently about healing.
Her core belief: Symptoms make sense when you understand the nervous system underneath them.
Trauma-Informed Therapy Through PLMHC
Peaceful Living Mental Health Counseling provides trauma-informed therapy for children, teens, and adults.
Services include support for:
Overthinking
Burnout
Trauma
Emotional overwhelm
Nervous system dysregulation
PLMHC offers in-person therapy in Scarsdale and virtual therapy throughout New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, and Florida.
If you’ve been searching for trauma-informed therapy in Westchester or EMDR therapy in Scarsdale, support is available.
Full Episode Transcript
Episode 17: Your Relationship Isn’t the Problem with Julie Hall
Dana:
Welcome to another episode of The Truth About Healing, the podcast that's here to challenge everything you think you knew about therapy.
I'm Dana Carretta-Stein, EMDR and neuro-informed therapist, and I'm on a mission to help 10 million people change their patterns, relationships, and future generations by teaching them how to gain control of their nervous system.
Let's go with it.
Welcome, everybody, back to another episode of The Truth About Healing. I am sitting here with Julie Hall.
Julie Hall is a licensed marriage and family therapist in Connecticut and New York, specializing in trauma, relationships, couples therapy, anxiety, depression, eating disorders, and fertility-related mental health.
As a certified Prepare and Enrich instructor and therapist trained in emotionally focused therapy, also known as EFT, CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, and DBT, dialectical behavior therapy, Julie helps individuals and couples build healthier relationships through emotional connection, attachment repair, and trauma-informed care.
Inspired by her own experiences, Julie is especially passionate about supporting women and couples navigating infertility and reproductive challenges, helping them move through one of life's most emotionally complex journeys with compassion and hope.
So welcome, Julie.
Julie:
Aw, thanks for having me.
Dana:
I'm so glad you're here.
Julie:
It's great to be here.
Dana:
Tell us a little bit about you, your background, and we'll kind of kick it from there.
Julie:
Sure. I actually came out of college and moved into tech. I worked in corporate. After that, I worked in nonprofit. After that, I worked at a startup.
Dana:
I see you're everywhere.
Julie:
And then I worked at the government.
Dana:
Wow.
Julie:
All in the tech industry. I came out of school with a computer science degree. That was my background for about 10 years.
And I pivoted to therapy because, really, my own lived experience, which is often, I think, common with how people find themselves in this field.
For me, I always loved talking to people and getting to know their stories. But I found myself in a situation in which I really felt like therapy could be an option for me.
I was resistant at first.
Dana:
What made you resistant?
Julie:
Growing up, therapy was not something that was supported. It wasn't really encouraged. In fact, there was a lot of shame, a lot of stigma in going to therapy.
Culturally for me, I grew up Indian American.
Dana:
Yeah. I think the culture piece is huge.
Julie:
It's huge.
Dana:
I would love to unpack that a little bit, too, because I think it's so real. Maybe it'll help normalize it for anyone else who's listening and has a similar background. They're not the only one who's experienced this, too.
Julie:
Yeah. These narratives don't just fall into your lap. They're based on what you hear, how you're responded to, and how you're not responded to.
I heard stories of friends and family who had gone to therapy, and it wasn't talked about in a way that was supportive or encouraging.
It was talked about in a way that was shameful.
So I internalized that message.
Dana:
There's something wrong with that person.
Julie:
There's something wrong with them, that they need help.
But I was in a situation with my husband. We had just gotten married maybe a couple of years prior, and we had a really hard time getting pregnant.
Dana:
That's really hard.
Julie:
It was really hard. It was not something that was in my family, not something that I really knew could be an issue for me because, as far as I knew, no one in my family struggled with fertility.
Dana:
As far as you know, right? Because if people don't talk, then it's hard to know what the family background is.
Julie:
Exactly.
And it's so important that you say that because as I started becoming more vulnerable and honest about my situation, stories were coming out of the woodwork.
Dana:
There you go. There's always that one person in the family who starts asking questions and talking, and then all of a sudden everybody starts opening up.
Julie:
There's this really great quote I love: "Pain travels through families until someone's ready to feel it."
Dana:
Yes. Generational trauma at its finest.
Julie:
As soon as I started to share more, it became a bit more normalized.
That said, I went through a lot of medical intervention, and it was really, really tough.
I remember sitting with the reproductive endocrinologist. He was great. I was sitting with my husband, and he slipped me a business card across the desk and said, "Hey, Julie, you might actually benefit from seeing the psychologist across the way in our practice."
I was immediately offended.
Dana:
What's the story you told yourself when he slipped you that card?
Julie:
The story I told myself was, not only is my body not working, now my mind isn't working.
Dana:
Something's wrong with you.
Julie:
There's something wrong with me mentally.
That was the story I was telling myself. So, of course, there was an immediate defense.
However, I think there was some intuitive place in me that thought, "You know what? This could be helpful."
So I went.
And it was as if the floodgates opened.
I know not everyone has that initial experience with a therapist, but I can't even remember her name because it was so long ago.
Dana:
Did you feel a connection with that therapist when you met her?
Julie:
She didn't really say much, but I felt safe enough.
Dana:
That's important.
Julie:
I felt safe enough in the space.
Dana:
That's usually what helps the floodgates open, that felt sense of safety.
Julie:
Exactly.
She just asked enough and left enough room for me to talk.
At the time, my older sister had had several children, and I was supporting her. I was throwing the baby showers. But in the midst of it, I was having a lot of struggles myself.
It was really hard, and there wasn't a lot of support at the time.
People mean well, but they're not always saying things that are particularly helpful.
Dana:
Oh, yeah. When you get married, everyone's like, "So when are you having a baby?" Or if you're dating someone, "When are you getting engaged?"
I started just saying to people when they ask me that, "I don't know. When are you getting divorced?"
Is that rude? Sorry.
People don't think. How do you know that someone's not trying to have a baby and it's really hard for them?
Julie:
Exactly.
In the culture I grew up in, there are a lot of beautiful things about Indian culture, but Indian culture can also be brutal as far as judgment and just saying what you think and feeling like you've got free rein on people.
Dana:
No filter.
Julie:
No filter.
But therapy was a really beautiful, positive experience, and that's what brought me on my own journey into therapy.
Over the next two years, I decided, "You know what? I think this is what I actually want to do with my life."
Dana:
Wow.
Julie:
That was about 15 years ago. I went back to school.
Dana:
It's kind of like a rebirth right there.
Julie:
It really was.
I have a wonderful partner, and he was super supportive. At the time, we didn't have kids.
I went to school really with the intention of supporting people on the other side, whether it be women or couples.
And I graduated with my two-year-old.
Dana:
Oh my God.
Julie:
I walked, got my diploma, and I was holding her. It was a really, really special experience.
Dana:
That is magical.
Julie:
It was really cool.
And so that's really where the journey started for me.
Dana:
And now in your practice, you work primarily with couples?
Julie:
I work primarily with couples. Sometimes they're navigating fertility issues, but it's really the gamut of issues that couples face.
What's Actually Happening Underneath Relationship Conflict?
Dana:
Where do you think most couples get stuck?
Julie:
When I went into the therapeutic field, there are a lot of different avenues of therapy you can go into.
I chose marriage and family therapy very specifically because of the lens through which it looks at the issues we face, and that's through the lens of relationship.
What's happening in our relational dynamics that activates our sense of safety or our sense of danger?
Dana:
And our sense of self.
Julie:
And our sense of self.
We operate really differently when we feel safe versus when we feel unsafe.
I think where couples often get stuck is they're talking about things that are on the surface, but there's so much happening underneath that line of awareness.
Dana:
It's not about the actual argument.
Julie:
No.
Dana:
It's the pattern in the argument.
Julie:
Exactly.
It's what's happening underneath. The questions we're asking underneath:
"Do I matter to you?"
"Can I trust you?"
"Am I safe with you?"
"Will you choose me?"
Those are all manifesting in the symptomology of the behaviors or the situations that we get into.
But we have difficulty engaging in the vulnerable conversation.
We have difficulty getting to the root.
It's hard because we're so often activated.
It's a practice of calming the nervous system.
Relationships Can Activate Our Oldest Wounds
Dana:
Where do you see the overlap with EFT and EMDR?
Julie:
I've never actually used the EMDR technique with couples.
But as far as the concept of EMDR, recognizing that there is this mind-body connection and calming the nervous system is really important.
When I think about relationships, what's so beautiful, particularly about romantic or partnered relationships, is that we are often activating our oldest wounds in our most proximate relationships.
But we have the highest capacity to heal those wounds in these relationships.
Dana:
Why is that?
Julie:
Because they are the relationships that are most proximate to us.
Couples generally have gotten together for a reason. There's something you see in each other.
There's an opportunity to mirror with each other, to see one another, to feel understood, to feel heard.
But we get so blocked in our own traumas.
Dana:
Sometimes even the relationship itself is a trigger to an earlier attachment.
There could be nothing even being said, but the actual type of connection, an intimate connection, and I don't mean intimate sexually, but a close, proximate relationship, is the trigger.
All of a sudden, everyone's in survival mode and conflict ensues.
Julie:
That's exactly right.
I think it's important for couples to recognize they have this high capacity to co-regulate their partner, to be that nervous system their partner leans on.
Seeing Beyond the Behavior
Julie:
My husband and I have been together 21 years and married 20 years. We've done this work.
I'm kind of the hothead of our relationship, and he's more flight. I'm fight, he's flight.
We were discussing something, and I was getting heated.
In the middle of me getting heated, he said, "You know, when you have this reaction, it's usually because you're scared about something. Can we have that conversation? Tell me what's going on."
Dana:
That's impressive.
Julie:
It was a record-scratch moment for me.
Dana:
It sounds like he really saw you.
Julie:
Yes.
Dana:
That's the intimacy couples work is trying to get to.
He was able to see beyond the behavior.
Julie:
Exactly.
That's really hard, and oftentimes it requires therapeutic support.
I often see couples who are almost on life support. This is make or break.
I would love for couples to come into the space because they're struggling with communication or noticing they're having the same argument over and over.
Then there's less charge in their nervous systems and we can get more quickly to the vulnerability underneath.
Understanding What's in Your Cup
Julie:
When I work with couples, I engage in family work with each person in the dyad.
I'll go through their family history and look at relational patterns.
How was love given?
How was love received?
How did you know you were in conflict?
Then we'll go through narratives.
What did your family value?
What did success look like?
What did failure look like?
Dana:
It's understanding what's in my cup.
Julie:
Exactly.
I like the partner to be there actively listening.
Then the third thing we look at is trauma.
A definition of trauma that has captured me is anything that happened to us that was too much, too fast, too much for too long, or not enough for too long, where we didn't receive adequate support or resourcing.
When the individual in the dyad can speak on those things, it helps them tap into more self-compassion and self-awareness.
Dana:
A lot of people don't realize they even "have trauma" because they think the things they went through were normal.
Even if something is considered normal, everyone's nervous system and its capacity are different.
Julie:
Exactly.
Often those behaviors or ways of thinking were adaptive at one point. They were helpful for survival.
Then, as people get older and enter relationships where there may actually be an opportunity for relational safety, those moves, behaviors, and ways of thinking are no longer adaptive.
They're not helping anymore.
The Pattern Is the Work
Julie:
The individual building that awareness while their partner listens helps the partner develop empathy.
Then we go more deeply into the pattern.
What do you notice happens in conflict?
Where do the two of you get stuck?
Dana:
The pattern is the work.
So many people come into couples therapy saying, "I want to talk about this fight."
But it's not the fight.
What pattern is that fight following?
What wounds is each individual bringing into that conversation?
How is it playing out?
And how do you wish it could play out instead?
The Pursuer and the Withdrawer
Julie:
In Sue Johnson's EFT work, there is almost always a pursuer or a withdrawer.
Sometimes we have withdrawer to withdrawer, sometimes pursuer to pursuer, but generally it's withdrawer to pursuer.
There's one person who, when there's conflict, is like, "Duck and cover."
They avoid. They shut down.
Then the pursuer says, "We have to fix this."
The pursuer has all the words. They know exactly what they're thinking and feeling. They want to fix it right now.
The pursuer is coming hot and heavy, and the withdrawer is panicking even more.
Dana:
It sounds like the pursuer needs a little more patience and the withdrawer needs a little more trust.
Julie:
That's exactly right.
What I try to help couples understand is that the intention is identical.
The intention for both of them is to preserve the connection.
Dana:
But they're doing it in ways that cause disconnection.
Julie:
Exactly.
Dana:
It goes down to the nervous system.
If you're pursuing, you're in hyperarousal.
If you're withdrawing, you're in hypoarousal.
We're either in a state of protection or a state of connection.
When you're both in protection, you can't connect.
Julie:
Exactly.
The pursuer has to tone the volume down. The withdrawer has to turn it up.
When they can both see, "We're actually trying to do the same thing, but we're doing it in ways that are ineffective," that changes the conversation.
I often use the language of what's effective as opposed to bad or good.
If it's not effective for what you're trying to accomplish, then we have to reassess.
Underneath, the withdrawer may be asking:
"Am I good enough?"
"Am I a complete failure in this?"
And the pursuer may be asking:
"Am I abandoned?"
"Am I alone?"
Those are the questions I try to help the couple sit with and hold space for in each other's perspectives.
Clean Up Your Side of the Street
Dana:
What do you see in your work that is glaringly obvious to you and you wish more people would say out loud?
Julie:
My initial intuition says:
Clean up your side of the street.
Dana:
I love that.
Julie:
Do your own work. Own what's in your cup.
It's difficult because when we're in that relational experience, it's the blame game.
"I wouldn't do that if you didn't do this."
"I did that because you did this."
"What about what you did?"
"Here's how it started."
For me, the most important characteristic in a healthy, sustained relationship isn't love, respect, or communication, although all of those things are incredibly important.
For me, it's humility.
What's the opportunity on my side of the street?
That's hard because when I don't feel emotionally safe, it's difficult for me to engage the capacity to check in with my side of the street.
But there's so much opportunity there.
Creating Enough Safety for Self-Reflection
Dana:
I often say if you're going into couples work, you can't go into it thinking the other person is going to change.
You have to go into it saying, "Why do I do this? What am I bringing to the table?"
But you said something really impactful.
They have to feel safe enough to self-reflect.
How does someone do that if their dynamic isn't super safe?
Julie:
It's very hard.
In the therapeutic environment, that's the opportunity the therapist has to model what it looks like to hold space and build a safe enough space for that partner to engage what's happening under the line of awareness.
Another component for me, one of the table stakes in my work with clients, is helping them develop a stronger sense of self-compassion.
The behaviors they're exhibiting that are problematic are not meant to be judged.
They are threat-response behaviors that have been developed by the body to preserve them or preserve the environment.
We help them see themselves as not bad.
They're not the problem.
But there are ways of thinking and behaving that are no longer serving them.
The more we can look at the problematic situation with less judgment, less critique, and more curiosity and compassion, the more we're building safety.
Self-Compassion Isn't a Free Pass
Dana:
That's what helps the behaviors change.
We want to invite more compassion and understand why certain behaviors happen.
Something I say to clients all the time is:
All emotions are welcome. All behavior might not be.
Some people don't realize that maybe their behavior is harmful.
We want to invite self-compassion and ownership.
Julie:
Exactly.
Emotions are information.
People can sometimes get self-compassion wrong. It can become reductive in the mainstream.
Self-compassion is being kind to ourselves and shifting a narrative, but in doing that, it opens up the centers of our brain that tell us we're capable of growth and change.
It actually accelerates growth.
It's not giving ourselves a pass.
It's an opportunity to take accountability in a way that's sustainable.
I'm not taking accountability from a place of gripping shame or self-criticism.
I'm in it for the long game because I want a deeper connection with my partner or my friendships.
I'm going to take ownership of this behavior and what's in my cup because I know that long game is going to bring more connection.
Is It Danger or Discomfort?
Dana:
It's hard work.
A comfort zone is a beautiful place, but nothing ever grows there.
There has to be discomfort in therapy work. Otherwise, what are we doing?
Julie:
Exactly.
Another piece of helping clients develop emotional safety is recognizing that new moves are scary at first.
Dana:
Of course they are. They're unknown.
Julie:
They're unfamiliar.
What happens is we read them as danger. The body reads them as danger.
The shift we want to help clients develop is recognizing:
It's not danger. It's discomfort.
It behooves us to tolerate the discomfort.
Dana:
Anytime something is new, a novel stimulus, there can be a healthy level of hypervigilance.
Our body sometimes has a very intense response because it perceives danger.
We really want to notice that mobilization to invite discernment.
Is this dangerous or not?
Is there a different perspective?
Leave a little more space before automatically deciding it's dangerous.
Julie:
Notice the mobilization to invite discernment.
Dana:
Once we can really own our nervous system and notice that it's trying to help us, when we see the function of the feelings we have, everything becomes much easier to understand and conceptualize.
Now we have a felt sense of safety to grow and adapt.
Anxiety Has a Function
Julie:
Knowledge is power.
The more understanding we have of what's happening inside the body, the more empowered we feel and the less anxious we are.
Dana:
I always tell everyone I work with that the goal is not to get rid of anxiety.
You need it.
There is a reason why our nervous system has that response.
There will be times in your life where heightened arousal is necessary to keep you safe.
Notice the mobilization.
Take time to notice it.
Is my nervous system perceiving a danger?
Can we pause and assess?
If there's no danger, then we can create space for the nervous system to settle.
That's basically what EMDR does automatically.
It can help desensitize things that your nervous system perceived as dangerous that are no longer dangerous.
Healing Happens in Relationship
Dana:
I like to wrap up with your final truth.
When you think about your own growth, what's a truth that's helped you grow?
What is your truth about healing?
Julie:
A truth about healing for me is:
Healing is not only an inside job.
It is an inside job, but I think sustained healing happens in relationship.
Dana:
Healed people heal people.
That's where our work is so impactful because we're not just helping one person.
When their nervous system regulates, they're going to interact with another person with more patience, acceptance, and empathy.
That's going to impact them, too.
It has a domino effect.
Julie:
While it is an inside job, if you're doing your own work and you keep meeting re-injury, it's very difficult for that inside work to be sustained.
Your body keeps recognizing, "No, actually, this is dangerous."
Dana:
Because you might actually be in danger.
Some relationships are not healthy.
Julie:
Exactly.
That's where I think couple relationships can have such beauty and opportunity for tending to our oldest wounds.
And for me as a therapist, I've had to do my own work.
What are my old wounds?
Because they'll play out in your sessions if you don't attend to them.
Dana:
Absolutely.
Julie:
It's doing your own work.
But it's not just an inside job.
Dana:
We heal in relationship.
It's an everyone job.
Julie, thank you so much for being here and chatting with me.
This has been such a cool conversation.
I think it's so relatable because relationships are what everybody needs for survival, and they're often what we struggle with the most.
Can you tell everyone where they can find you if they want to reach out?
Julie:
My website is juliehalltherapy.com, and all my information is there.
I have an Instagram account, @julievhall01, I think. I don't use it very often, but it's there.
You can find me on LinkedIn.
My website is probably the best place to find me.
Dana:
Is that where someone would go if they wanted to book an appointment with you?
Julie:
Yeah. You can do that and get all my information.
Dana:
And let everyone know where you're located.
Julie:
I'm located in Stamford, Connecticut, and I'm also licensed in New York.
Dana:
Awesome.
Thank you so much, Julie.
Thank you, everyone, for listening, and we'll catch you on the next episode of The Truth About Healing.
I'm Dana Carretta-Stein, reminding you that we repeat what we don't repair.
See you on the next one.
Thank you for listening to another episode of The Truth About Healing Podcast.
If you know someone who's still stuck, share this episode with them because, as you know, the truth can set them free.
And if you're ready to get started to see what you need to repair, contact us at Peaceful Living Mental Health Counseling and we will get you started.
Until next time, I'm Dana Carretta-Stein reminding you:
We repeat what we don't repair.
Podcast Disclaimer
This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health or medical advice. Listening does not create a therapist-client relationship. If you need support, contact a licensed professional or your local emergency services.
Crisis Support: If you're in crisis, call or text 988 in the U.S. or contact your local emergency number.
Transcript lightly edited for readability while preserving the meaning and conversational tone of the original recording
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Through honest conversations, trauma-informed insights, and nervous system education, Dana challenges common beliefs about healing and offers a more compassionate way to understand ourselves.
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