Episode 21: Can EMDR Therapy Work Without a Rigid Protocol? With Bridger and Jen
EMDR Therapy Protocol: Why Case Conceptualization and the Therapeutic Relationship Matter
What happens when an EMDR therapist knows the protocol but still feels stuck with a client?
Do they need another technique? A different script? A new intervention?
Or is there something important happening in the therapeutic relationship that deserves more attention?
In Episode 21 of The Truth About Healing Podcast, Dana Carretta-Stein welcomes Bridger and Jen, hosts of the Notice That Podcast and founders of Beyond Healing, for a conversation about the evolving world of EMDR therapy.
They explore what happens when therapists move beyond rigid interpretations of the EMDR therapy protocol and become more curious about the person sitting across from them.
From relational patterns and therapist self-awareness to case conceptualization and the fear of doing EMDR "wrong," this episode challenges some common assumptions about what makes therapy effective.
And it raises an important question:
Are we paying enough attention to the relationship while we're focusing on the intervention?
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Episode Highlights
In this episode, Dana, Bridger, and Jen talk about:
What Dana, Bridger, and Jen noticed at the EMDRIA Conference
How enactment-focused EMDR explores relational patterns
Why therapists' emotional responses deserve thoughtful attention
The difference between authenticity and inappropriate self-disclosure
Why symptoms may have developed as adaptive strategies
What to consider when clients repeatedly say "I don't know"
How SIP supports case conceptualization
Why rigid thinking can contribute to therapist insecurity
What client-centered EMDR means in practice
Memorable Quote
"You are a human first, then you're a therapist, and now you're learning to become an EMDR therapist. And we cannot get those out of order." - Jen, Beyond Healing and Notice That Podcast
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Further Learning & Resources
Discover journals, workbooks, consultation resources, and recommended tools designed to support both personal healing and professional growth.
EMDR Therapy Progress Journal
The EMDR Therapy Progress Journal helps clients track healing progress, identify
patterns, document insights, and stay connected to their therapeutic journey between sessions.
Perfect for:
EMDR clients
Trauma recovery work
Reflection between sessions
Tracking healing milestones
EMDR Coach Treatment Planning Workbook
Designed specifically for EMDR therapists, this workbook helps simplify case
conceptualization, target sequencing, and treatment planning.
Ideal for:
EMDR-trained clinicians
EMDR consultation groups
Organizing complex cases
Strengthening treatment planning skills
Meet the Guests: Bridger and Jen of Beyond Healing
Bridger and Jen are the hosts of Notice That Podcast and founders of Beyond Healing, an educational organization offering training and resources for trauma-informed mental health professionals.
Their work explores EMDR therapy, somatic integration, attachment, case conceptualization, and the therapeutic relationship.
Through their podcast and educational programs, they encourage therapists to think critically about their clinical decisions while staying connected to the human experience of therapy.
Explore their work:
They also discuss their forthcoming book on EMDR and the therapeutic relationship, which was described as scheduled for March at the time of recording.
Related Reading on EMDR Case Conceptualization
If this conversation resonated, these posts from The EMDR Coach blog go deeper:
Meet Our Host Dana Carretta-Stein, LMHC
Dana Carretta-Stein is an LMHC, EMDRIA Approved Consultant, founder of The EMDR Coach, and founder of Peaceful Living Mental Health Counseling (PLMHC).
Her work focuses on trauma-informed therapy, nervous system healing, EMDR therapy, attachment patterns, and helping people understand the deeper roots behind emotional and behavioral patterns.
Dana blends neuroscience, trauma-informed education, and direct honesty in a way that helps listeners feel both validated and challenged to think differently about healing.
Her core belief: Symptoms make sense when you understand the nervous system underneath them.
Trauma-Informed Therapy Through PLMHC
Peaceful Living Mental Health Counseling provides trauma-informed therapy for children, teens, and adults.
Services include support for:
Overthinking
Burnout
Trauma
Emotional overwhelm
Nervous system dysregulation
PLMHC offers in-person therapy in Scarsdale and virtual therapy throughout New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, and Florida.
If you’ve been searching for trauma-informed therapy in Westchester or EMDR therapy in Scarsdale, support is available.
Full Episode Transcript: Beyond the EMDR Therapy Protocol
Episode 21: Can EMDR Therapy Work Without a Rigid Protocol? With Bridger and Jen
Dana: Welcome to another episode of The Truth About Healing, the podcast that's here to challenge everything you think you knew about therapy. I'm Dana Carretta-Stein, EMDR and neuro-informed therapist, and I'm on a mission to help 10 million people change their patterns, relationships, and future generations by teaching them how to gain control of their nervous system.
Dana: Let's go with it. Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of The Truth About Healing podcast. I'm your host, Dana Carretta-Stein, and I am very excited for today's episode with Bridger and Jen. Bridger and Jen are the hosts of the Notice That podcast, which, if any of you EMDR therapists know, is a very popular EMDR therapy podcast, as well as the founders of Beyond Healing, which has a ton of information on trauma-informed therapies, EMDR basic training, and beyond.
Dana: They're just some really progressive, brilliant minds in the EMDR therapy world. So I am so excited to have them here on our podcast today to share all of their knowledge for everyone to learn from. Welcome, Bridger and Jen.
Jen: Yay! Thank you so much. That was a beautiful intro.
Bridger: Thank you for having us. We're so excited to be here with you today.
What Stood Out at the EMDRIA Conference?
Dana: I'm so excited to be here with you guys. So we just got back from the EMDRIA Conference a few weeks ago, months ago maybe.
Jen: It was about a month ago.
Dana: Time is lost at this point in my life.
Bridger: We banned ourselves from talking about time. It's some point in the past. It wasn't today. It was before.
Dana: It's an illusion, right? So what did you guys think, conference-wise? What were your takeaways, or the things that stood out to you as things that are coming up in the EMDR therapy world?
Jen: Man, it was a whirlwind. It was such an exciting experience. We've been to many conferences in the past, and it just feels like with each one, the energy is growing. And then there were some really special, monumental moments at this conference in particular. Part of it is that the leadership of EMDRIA is turning over, and that was announced. I think that stirred up a lot of energy, curiosity, excitement, and questions about what that means for the future of EMDR and the future of EMDRIA. So that was fun to be in that mix of energy.
Dana: Everyone kind of perked up, right? Like, "Wait a minute. What's happening?"
Bridger: And this was the first conference that we'd attended that we didn't present at. So it was a little bit of a different focus for us, bringing the podcast. That conference is one of the most concentrated opportunities for us to meet the people that we make the podcast for. We had a lot of interviews scheduled with some of the presenters, and we're releasing that content, which is exciting.
Dana: And your setup was so cool, too. Can we just talk about that? You walked by and you were like, "I wanna hang out there."
Bridger: Thank you so much. If we could get that clip sent to us, that would be perfect. We put so much time and thought into how that would work. The fourth episode from that series is coming out this week, and every time I sit down to edit it, I'm just like, "It paid off. It worked."
Dana: It was so good. And I love that Ryan was the one that interviewed me and Eric. Ryan never gets in front of the camera. I was like, "This is so cool."
Bridger: I think with that vantage point of the conference, and thinking about the listener, those professional conferences are theoretically where some of the most cutting-edge information is presented for the EMDR community. That alone sets up a really interesting dynamic with the attendees. Some people are there because they love the opportunity to connect and see the friends they only see at conferences. Other people are there to really push the field forward, presenting some things that might ruffle feathers in the rest of the community. So it sets up this really unique kind of tension. Maybe tension is too negative a word.
Dana: But sometimes some pressure is good, right? Pressure creates growth.
Bridger: Absolutely. So I think the pressure in that environment is really special. We got to connect with a lot of people and came away with a lot of content ideas.
Dana: It was the perfect scenario for you guys. All these brilliant minds in the EMDR therapy world are there, and you have a forum to get that into the ears of so many people.
Bridger: Thank you. That was our vision.
Jen: There were many moments where we were just kind of awe-struck by the types of conversations we were getting to have, and that people who had been up on stage all day doing presentations were willing to come sit down, have a really personal conversation, and just be human with us. That was our goal: to move you from the stage into the chair, to just sit and be a person together and answer questions. The generosity was there, the excitement was there. No one felt off limits, whether they were tired or sick or had been presenting all day. It was just a really good energy and a lot of generosity.
Conversations With Leaders in the EMDR Community
Dana: From all the people you interviewed, is there anyone that stood out, like, "I can't believe I'm talking to this person"? Because we all get really fangirl excited about a lot of these people. I know I did.
Bridger: There were a handful for me. And just a caveat, the podcast in general has become an ever-present experience of "I can't believe that we get to talk to these people." It's given us an opportunity that we wouldn't have otherwise. That was the second conversation we've had with Derek Farrell on the podcast, and that's just rare. Derek was one of my most anticipated interactions, especially knowing his keynote was a follow-up to last year's address.
Bridger: For those who are paying attention, the EMDR community is currently in a bit of an identity evolution.
Dana: That's a nice way to put it. It takes out the word crisis, right?
Jen: Diplomatic.
Bridger: It's very much evidence-driven. The community is evolving in how we understand the adaptive information processing model and why healing is possible, and in what formats we put that into. You see things like EMDR 2.0, a branch of the EMDR family that is questioning some longstanding fundamental assumptions about what healing looks like, and they're reporting efficacy at a rate that is unprecedented in the EMDR literature. We were able to sit down with Suzy Matthijssen, one of the originators of EMDR 2.0, for the second time, and that feels so special. So I would probably say those two, Derek and Suzy.
Jen: I'll take a little different direction, because this is not a presenter or a renowned name in the EMDR world. Jennifer Anne Counseling is this popular creator.
Bridger: I knew you were gonna say that. You were so excited to see her.
Jen: I just have the biggest fangirl crush on her. Shout out, Jennifer, if you're listening to this.
Dana: We'll get her on over here too.
Jen: If anyone listening has not found her TikTok or Instagram, she is hilarious. She does content for therapists and for anybody, but it really relates the experience of a therapist, and she is so funny and so talented at what she does. It was really exciting to meet her in person and have her on.
Dana: I love the ones she was posting at the conference, like, "Me at the conference," and then her husband on the rides at Disney going, "Whoo!" That was so awesome. So relatable.
What Is Enactment-Focused EMDR?
Dana: Speaking of the conference, last year you guys did present, and one thing that has always stuck with me was your presentation on behavioral reenactments as a target and a focal point in therapy. That has never left me since hearing you speak about it. It's something I see all the time in session, and something I talk about with consultees. Can you share a little bit about the idea and why it is so effective when we target those things?
Jen: The presentation we did was enactment-focused EMDR. It looks at how we can use an approach like EMDR to focus on a relational dynamic rather than just a personal trauma or a personal experience, and to see how each of our own histories come together and interact with one another, and end up playing out patterns that re-agitate wounds we have from our individual histories.
Dana: It's like patterns, right?
Jen: Patterns. We sometimes use the metaphor of a dance. We each come with different steps that we've learned to take, but we find a rhythm and a flow with someone. Sometimes that's a really beautiful, elegant dance that honors both parties, and other times we're stepping on each other's toes and it's not working well. So we try to break that down: what are enactments, what are these relational dynamics, and how do we make that the focus of our processing work?
Bridger: One of the easy ways to fly over what enactment-focused EMDR really is, and what we were trying to accomplish in that presentation, is in three parts. The first is recognizing something that, once you say it or see it, feels so obvious: you have templates within your body for how to interpret, predict, and anticipate the behavior of another person. Even with a stranger, your body is already taking a shape and an orientation. You might experience yourself as an extrovert or an introvert, and those are different ways of talking about the patterns and templates built through our relational history, all the way back to epigenetic predispositions for how you're going to show up in the world.
Bridger: The second part, in the therapeutic encounter, is realizing the potential of that first component. Even when you come to therapy as a client, you're carrying templates into the room of who this other person is going to be. And as the therapist, you're carrying in templates of who this other person is going to be, as well as who you're supposed to be. That creates a really dense opportunity for enactments to emerge. The history of psychotherapy has talked about this for a long time, all the way back to Freud's repetition compulsion: we find opportunities in relationships to work through earlier conflicts we've experienced. The therapeutic relationship isn't removed from that potential. It might actually be the space where that type of working out of old stuff happens most often.
Bridger: The third part is that once we realize we're bringing in relationship templates and anticipation frameworks, and that the therapeutic relationship is a ripe opportunity for that to take place, we can become more intentional with it. As therapists, we can not just notice that it's happening, but use it as an opportunity to access things that might not show up on a traditional trauma timeline.
The Before, During, and After of Trauma
Bridger: With my clients, I talk about the "during" of the trauma. That's what typically shows up in a subjective units of distress-based history: all the bad things that have ever happened to you. But there is a before and an after, too. Often I find that the during hurt as badly as it did because it exploited something preexisting. It fractured an already vulnerable way of being in the world. And then the after sealed it in place. Not only did this bad thing happen, but it obliterated the foundation you entered that encounter with, and the after left you hopeless.
Dana: So basically, you were feeling like you didn't really have a great support system, then something terrible happens, and not feeling supported just reinforced that even more. And that's how we're walking around in the world.
Bridger: Yeah. Or even if you feel like you do have a great support system, this bad thing made you realize that some of those relationships are conditional on how you show up and what you can and can't say. As a therapist, I hear so often, especially with assault survivors or combat veterans, "I can't talk about it. I either fear it too much to ever talk about it, or the time I tried, it was rejected." And that's the part that hurts the most.
Dana: You guys know I'm very passionate about the dynamic that plays out between therapist and client. You think about why someone became a therapist in the first place. I've seen patterns with consultees where a client has a very traumatic history and the therapist gets freaked out. And it's like, but you're an EMDR therapist. That stuff is getting activated, right? Their own fear of tolerating intense affect.
Jen: I think exploring how this is playing out in the therapeutic dynamic is a really de-shaming posture. It's not "Is it happening?" It definitely is happening. It's "How is it happening? What's the particular way my own system is anticipating and predicting a certain dynamic from the client who has come in, and where is that coming from?" That's not a bad thing, but it brings it into awareness so we can have some intentionality and choice in how we move forward.
Dana: And really, there's potential to turn it into a therapeutic experience if we're aware of it, versus being blind to the fact that it's happening. Just being curious and aware is the first step, so we don't have repeating patterns in sessions with clients. Being able to say, "Okay, this might be my stuff, and that's okay." Like you said, a very de-shaming way, because we're all human. Everybody has stuff, and it's kind of ridiculous to think we're never going to be affected in session. It's going to happen. Just own it.
When a Therapist's Emotional Response Becomes Healing
Jen: And maybe even the way in which we are affected might be the most meaningful moment to bring in. I was sharing recently an example of a client who read something to me that was particularly moving, and I had a really unexpected, big emotional response. I knew whatever she was going to share would be meaningful and that I would feel sensitive to it, but I was just overcome with emotion. The tears were coming, and I am not a big crier, so I was shocked. What is happening here? I gave myself enough space in that moment to allow that expression to take place, and then learned on the other side of it that that's what had been missing for her when she shared about her experience early in life. She was missing someone who felt so deeply with her and had a reaction.
Dana: An empathic witness.
Jen: Right. So that was another example of those moments. It's not just that we should be allowed to have it. It might be the most healing thing I could offer: a real human response.
Dana: And actually show up as a person. I think we're finally all speaking up a bit more about how the idea of the therapist as a blank slate is bullshit. It doesn't work. We have people coming in who have gone through really terrible things, and the amount of courage it takes to come into a therapy space with somebody you don't know and be really vulnerable means we have to be able to do the same.
Is the Therapist a Blank Slate?
Bridger: We have a free resource we've been putting out since June on Substack called The Relational Thread. It's partly reflections from Jen's and my forthcoming book on EMDR and the therapeutic relationship. We deal with this idea centrally throughout the book, and we're continuing to elaborate on it in the essays: what does it mean if the therapist is not a blank slate? On one end of the spectrum, there's almost a license to be overflowing with all of your stuff all of the time, the unhealthy version where you're now, with permission, making the session about you. That's not what we're saying.
Bridger: On the other end of the spectrum, you're actively cultivating a keen awareness of what is coming up in you and why, and paying attention to what format of incorporating that material into the session would actually be best for the client. That is a very different posture and practice than "I'm just going to share whatever's coming up." That's a question for the ethics of a relational approach to psychotherapy. If you're going to be active and real in the relationship, how do you know the difference between what is genuinely in the client's best interest and what is your own repetition compulsion coming out to make the client someone they're not, or this moment something it's not?
Dana: Or, in some cases, having the client start taking care of you, which is not the goal of therapy.
Bridger: Exactly. Jen, in your story, that's not you saying, "I'm too much, and you need to help me," or "My feelings are your fault." You're seeing the opportunity to connect with the client through a genuine emergence of affect that is congruent with the wounds she's had and the relationships that didn't show up for her. That's very different from somebody feeling triggered in a session and just emoting, which, again, I'm not trying to shame. That happens. But a relational approach to EMDR, or enactment-focused EMDR as a more formalized approach, is a very diligent practice of telling the difference between what's actually in the client's best interest and what's maybe in mine.
Jen: As you're naming that, the repetition compulsion I had to resist in that moment was to apologize for my tears. "Oh, I don't know why I'm crying." That really would have turned the focus back to me and recruited some kind of acknowledgment from her, like, "No, it's fine." It's not the tears that were the problem. It would have been the enactment of needing to apologize for my emotions, or distracting, or making light of the moment so they're not the center.
Dana: Forcing the relationship to now have to deal with it, instead of it just being a natural process.
Jen: Right. Cultivating that self-awareness requires noticing, "Ooh, my natural instinct would be to go there," and instead saying, "No, sit calm in this, and let her continue to share, because this moment is really hers." And then there was a relational reflection afterward: What was that like to share? How did you experience this moment together?
Bridger: Our book is coming out in March, and I'm very curious to hear the feedback, because I think half, if not more, is pointed at the therapist and what kind of work we need to do to prepare for that type of room. I wonder if some people will come to the book saying, "I love the relational approach. How do I do that with my client?" and then encounter a book that's about their stuff.
Dana: It's so powerful, and I think that type of book is so needed. Bridger, you've heard me tell you a million times, you have a way of finding the words to explain things beautifully. I'm stumbling, and you're like, "Here we go," and it's so eloquent. Yes, what he said.
Bridger: Now you can point to the book and say, "It's right there. It's on page 58."
Dana: Instead of hearing me stumble trying to get the words out. But I also noticed with that practice, I'll say to myself whenever I'm feeling something, there's that pause before I share or express something: Is this about me or is it about them? Is there therapeutic value for them? And Jen, you describing not having to apologize for your tears, that's also so therapeutic as it translates outside the therapy space, in how we interact relationally with our partners and loved ones. That's where I've found that my work as a therapist has healed me as a person as well.
Jen: Absolutely. Early in my career, many years ago, that's not how I practiced at all. I was much more of an objective, intervention-strict therapist. Comparing the two, working relationally is what promoted the most self-work I've ever had to do. To become aware of those things, to sit in vulnerability, to not hide behind a mask or the buffer of a protocol, a script, or a step-by-step process, but to really show up as a raw human meant I had to reflect a lot, feel a lot, and do a lot of work to be able to do that well.
Bridger: I've heard you talk about it over the years, Jen, and you don't contrast it this starkly, but in my mind it's the difference between fluorescent lights, high heels, and a miniskirt versus warm lighting, bare feet, and blankets.
Jen: I love the imagery. That makes me so uncomfortable. Okay, sorry. Never mind.
Dana: Remember, discomfort is a good thing, right?
Bridger: It's actually just rage bait between Jen and me, which is chapter 13 in the book.
Jen: There are only 12, but there's a hidden chapter 13.
Bridger: Every third episode of the podcast is just us arguing about something.
Dana: But like we always say, conflict is communication trying to happen. And that's how the most beautiful things get worked through.
Bridger: Radically relating.
Human First, Then Therapist, Then EMDR Therapist
Dana: I think that relational component is the part that often gets left out of EMDR basic training. Whenever I do consultation, I'll always say, "Here's the EMDR and the protocols, but don't forget about being a human being. Don't throw that out now that you're doing EMDR. Bring it in."
Jen: That's probably the phrase I say the most in our trainings: you are a human first, then you're a therapist, and now you're learning to become an EMDR therapist. And we cannot get those out of order. Stay true to those first two elements. You're a person, and you have feelings, instincts, intuition, and wisdom. You're also a therapist with so many skills and techniques you've been trained in. Don't lose sight of that. As you bring on a new approach or modality, it's going to feel awkward and hard, but you still have those other two elements intact. You still know a lot. Go in and borrow from that.
Dana: Exactly. Carl Rogers always sticks out in my head. I'm very Rogerian as a foundation: unconditional positive regard. We've got to love it. To me, that is very much about being a person. I think a lot of times when we get into protocols and all these things, we stop listening to our gut, and a lot of times it's pretty accurate if you just lean in, attune, and let that guide the EMDR.
Bridger: The neuroscience side of me comes in with this: it's accurate because it has literally been pruned over millennia, as part of our species, to reliably give you information about what's coming up in the room. And not to make a hot take pointed at Carl Rogers, but does unconditional positive regard have a mirror toward the self of the therapist as well? That's an important blind spot our field actively perpetuates. Everything we're talking about is for your client the vast majority of the time. It's not for you. It's supposed to be you doing that for the client. And I don't think that's what most of us got into this profession for. We got into it to be with people in those moments of suffering, to believe in and cultivate hope, and to be with them through the process of getting through it.
Dana: I almost picture just being in the trenches with them. I said to Philip the other day, he's a kid with very big emotions, "I can't fix all the things that happened, but I know that you won't be alone when you go through them." To me, that's important. In the trenches, having been in many trenches, we're with them, and we know it's scary. And I think that takes away the feeling that we have to fix emotions. I think that's a common misconception about EMDR: "Can you fix this anxiety for me?" No. Let's actually start to unpack how that was helping you, by embracing it.
Why Symptoms Are Strategies
Dana: Bridger, you always say symptoms are strategies, right?
Bridger: Yes. As you were saying how it helped you, that's what was going through my mind. That's a foundational part of how we teach at Beyond: helping people see that even if you have a history as a therapist of leaning on diagnostic frameworks like the DSM, or coming up with symptom lists, those are useful, but they're indicators of an underlying reality. So how do we bring awareness to what that underlying reality was built from, and what role did it play when it was once adaptive?
Bridger: The example we always use, because it's somewhat easy to identify and brings up the bad feelings we sometimes have, is an addiction disorder. At one time, because it's embedded in the body, it was a means of dealing with emotions and reality in a way that no other opportunity offered. It was in their control to shift how they felt and their orientation to their world. Now it's led to all of these secondary problems, and dependence on the substance is breaking down their body. But at one time, it was the only answer.
What to Do When a Client Says "I Don't Know"
Dana: So that's the space we've got to go back to work on. I love those moments in sessions, and I know the question every other therapist listening would probably ask is: "What do you do when you try to go there and the client says, 'I don't know'? They can't identify a memory. They can't identify anything. It's just, 'I don't know.'"
Jen: What comes up for me is: can we start by honoring that even if we don't know a specific moment, we can trust that our systems wouldn't be as committed as they are to that strategy, pattern, or behavior if it didn't have some kind of adaptive utility at one point in time? It was essential. It was critical. Sometimes that's the first layer, especially when it's what we call way-of-life trauma: "It was just my normal every day."
Dana: "I don't remember not feeling that way."
Jen: Right. "I didn't have conscious awareness of a moment it shifted, but it became part of who I was because my world shaped me that way." That stance of honoring it goes a long way, and it helps de-shame. We know shame continues to escalate and perpetuate any strategy or pattern, because it's such a terrible feeling that we look for relief even more. So de-shaming and having that honoring posture gives us a little space over time to get curious. We may not find an exact moment, but we can find that, based on these stories, something kind of makes sense.
Bridger: The piece I would add is that the "I don't know" itself can be a strategy, short of some kind of damage or lesion that literally removes access to those experiences. When a very direct question is asked, like, "We have this addiction disorder. Where do you think it began, and what do you think you were trying to regulate then?" and the answer is "I don't know," there's something happening in that room. That moment itself might be the work. I think that's what you were getting at, Jen. But that moment is hard to talk about, because "I don't know" tends to activate templates in the therapist: "Oh gosh, I don't know where to go now. I guess we could talk about something else."
Dana: We get weird, right? "Let me just get my binder and flip through and see where I go now."
Bridger: But that's the moment where the whole thing kind of shows itself. You have a solid conceptualization hypothesis, and AIP and EMDR support it even more: the strategy was adaptive at one time, and that's why your body clung to it. So rest on that foundation and stay the course, even though the room just got more pressured or the client rejected the invitation.
Dana: Like trust, right? Trust your nervous system, that it wouldn't be wired the way it was for no reason.
Jen: See the "I don't know" with curiosity.
Dana: I love that so much, because by removing the pressure, it's: "Okay, you don't know. You don't have to know. But can you trust that your nervous system wired itself in a way that tried to keep you alive?" I think that probably builds so much empowerment and confidence for that person. It might not be a memory they have conscious awareness of. It could be implicit. Who knows?
Jen: In our Somatic Integration and Processing training, one of the things we say is that all we can do is invite. Even if you as the therapist stay curious about the "I don't knows" and the rejections you're getting, it's still an invitation. When you just said, Dana, "Is it possible for us to hold the awareness that your nervous system was doing exactly what it needed to do to survive?" the client could respond, "No, I just think I'm really fucked up." And it's like, okay. We keep trying to stay in that curious, compassionate posture, but that's an option the client has too.
Where to Start: SIP and EMDR Case Conceptualization
Dana: You mentioned your SIP training. You have so much good material, so many amazing trainings at Beyond. If I'm a new EMDR therapist, and I know you offer basic training as well, where would be a good starting point? What would be a good order to go in?
Jen: There are a couple of directions you could go. SIP, Somatic Integration and Processing, is a case conceptualization training. It's not about learning a new intervention or modality. It's about learning how to see cases. A lot of what we're talking about today is rooted in that conceptualization: the view we hold of humans and why we do what we do, and how we make sense of that in a therapeutic context. Then we can strategically apply different modalities or interventions to that case conceptualization and operate them with more efficiency and effectiveness. We also talk a lot about the therapeutic relationship, because that's where it's all unfolding. So that training in particular is foundational. It's in everything else downstream that we teach: our basic training, our certification cohorts. It's everywhere.
Dana: Does someone have to be EMDR trained to take that one?
Bridger and Jen: No.
Dana: Okay, great, because that almost sounds like a prequel to EMDR basic training, which I think is a great place to start.
Bridger: That training has been going on for six or seven years. Even in its foundation, we wanted to create an approach that helps people understand "why this tool now," because I have a robust picture of what is actually contributing to the suffering of the client I'm sitting with. It really is the connective tissue between the modalities you might use. Whether you're a parts work therapist, a somatic therapist, strictly cognitive behavioral, EMDR, or trauma-focused, there's a connective component of conceptualization that will help you integrate those tools to support the clients you encounter.
Bridger: If people listening want an example of it, we just put together a walk-through where I present a composite case vignette of complex trauma and neurodivergence. The vignette uses EMDR, but I speak to it throughout the video, that this is a place where your tool, whatever it is, will have ways of responding once you start seeing the material this way. At connectbeyondhealing.com/sip, there's the video, and there's also a 12-page worksheet that goes through it.
Dana: Oh wow, I love that. You hit on such an important point. EMDR is one method, but it's not the only one. There are so many different approaches, but what's most important is the case conceptualization: how you see that person's life and their nervous system, and how that informs the way they've downloaded their experiences and how they perceive them. I'm almost wishing SIP was in every graduate program for people becoming therapists.
Jen: We wish that too, Dana. We would love that.
Dana: Because it really is the missing piece of how to be a good therapist: seeing the whole picture.
Jen: I don't feel like it's emphasized enough. In our field, we overemphasize intervention and quick, easy ways to try to heal human suffering or trauma.
Dana: And diagnosis.
Jen: It's a nice slow-down into saying, "Let's really understand what we're working with." Take the example of how you understand the "I don't know" when that's all the client says. You add a case conceptualization model onto that, and you see it differently. You have new creative ideas about what to do in that moment, because you understand more, or you have more theories about what that "I don't know" is actually doing. So I think that's a foundational place to start. For people who are already EMDR trained, our certification program folds in SIP. It's not the full training, but we heavily emphasize case conceptualization through attachment, memory, and somatic psychology. Bringing those pieces together has really elevated people's skill set in applying EMDR to their cases. So that would be another recommendation.
Dana: That's a good place to start, because attachment is underneath so much, especially when it goes back to that interpersonal space with clients that we were talking about.
Moving Beyond a Rigid EMDR Therapy Protocol
Dana: You guys have been doing this a long time now. What would you say are your biggest pet peeves as EMDR consultants, as people who really know EMDR? What ticks you off the most when you see it talked about in the community?
Bridger: In some ways we've nudged up against it already: the undermining of the history that precedes a person becoming basic trained. EMDR is so much more effective when it's integrated into a thorough case conceptualization approach and an adaptive, flexible responsiveness to the client. Not, "My training told me we need to do calm safe place and container first, then start target identification based on how distressing it was, and then maybe go first-and-worst and just start running through it."
Dana: Like robotic.
Bridger: Your body knows that's a terrifying way of doing this. It feels rigid. That's not to say it can't be effective, but the rigidity is what turns EMDR into a cookie-cutter multilevel marketing scheme, and that's not what I see the world of EMDR being about, or what EMDRIA even espouses. One of its central components is a tendency to remove the history of the therapist who's becoming basic trained, saying, "Now you're an EMDR therapist." So in any certification or training consultation I do, I'm asking more questions than I'm giving answers. We talk in SIP about how there's no such thing as an answer. There's a response, and there are some ideas we can play with. Removing that history perpetuates false certainty, and then imposter syndrome runs rampant. If the therapist isn't experiencing the effectiveness they looked to that training to provide for their caseload, it must be their fault. Or they just have a whole caseload full of "resistant" clients.
Jen: I'd say I have two, and one is right alongside that: anyone speaking about anything with absolutes and certainty. There is no certainty in this. We're humans. There's no equation. There's so much diversity, nuance, and specificity to each person's context. So with any trainers, consultants, or presenters speaking in absolutes and certainty, I'd say be cautious and ask questions.
Is There an "EMDRIA Police"?
Jen: The other one, which I'm recently deconstructing as well, is this idea that there are EMDRIA police out there who are out to get us, who will tell us we've somehow done it wrong and we're going to get our license revoked. I hear that so much from consultees: "Am I allowed to do this? Is this okay?"
Dana: Like they're breaking protocol.
Jen: Yes. And there was truth in that sentiment at one point in time. Earlier in my career, that's how a lot of people talked about it. But the more we've gotten to interact with people at EMDRIA, and with trainers and authors, the more we see that no one's really holding that perspective anymore. It's time we let go of that. When we have an idea, it's not "Am I allowed to?" It's "Let me think this through. Is this meaningful? Is this purposeful? What's the intention behind it? Where would it be helpful? Where might it be harmful?" Let's learn how to think about these things rather than just check a box.
Dana: Go back to the case conceptualization, right?
Bridger: That one is so interesting, because I have consultees, and we've talked about this over the years, where there are people who practice and train EMDR who perpetuate that rigidity. So that's real at the same time. There's a dissonance in our field: there's no EMDRIA police commissioned to find people practicing without fidelity, and yet there are trainers and consultants who perpetuate that fear in their consultees and trainees.
Jen: It does feel like the field itself is evolving. There are more trainers and consultants presenting with open-mindedness now than ever, and less certainty and absolutes. I think that fear comes out of the idea that if there's an exact right way and an exact wrong way, and an answer for everything, then there must be a governing body, and am I falling on the right side of these rules?
Dana: "Am I doing it wrong?" That fear. I say to consultees all the time: you learn the concepts of EMDR, and once you get that solid foundation, then go rogue. It's not about following a protocol. Francine never wanted that. In her book, she said it was never designed to be one size fits all. It's more about creating a way to conceptualize cases that's applicable across the spectrum to each person's life. That's why, whenever people ask me, "What's the protocol for this and this?" I'm always like, "I need more information. Bring a case. Tell me about the experience." Because it's going to be different depending on the person.
Jen: Absolutely. That's what makes it client-centered.
Dana: Yes. And that's what Derek was saying so much at the conference as well: so much client-centeredness. That was the part of the conference that stuck out for me, everyone talking about that more and getting away from this rigid "it has to be this way, it has to look this way."
Where to Find Bridger and Jen
Dana: I'm so grateful to you guys for sharing your brains with us. Tell everyone where they can find you, where they can listen to you, where they can train with you, all the things.
Bridger: Absolutely. Our website is connectbeyondhealing.com. There's a For Therapists tab with our course calendar. The SIP video demonstration I mentioned is at connectbeyondhealing.com/sip. There are lots of resources, and I'd encourage you to explore the website, because we've put a lot of work into it over the years to make it a resource therapists can bookmark.
Dana: It's so thorough. The comparison charts are my favorite, because that's what my brain would naturally need to see before making a decision anyway, and you already planned for that.
Bridger: Here you go. It shows up right in your downloads folder. On social media, we're Notice That Podcast on Facebook and Instagram, and Think Beyond Healing is our YouTube page. I'll be happy to share those details for the show notes. We've been doing the Notice That Podcast since 2019, so there are a few episodes on there.
Jen: Just a few.
Bridger: And it's actively being recorded. As we mentioned, the Notes from the Hall series, our EMDRIA conference interview series, is dropping weekly.
Jen: Thank you for giving us the opportunity to share all of that, to connect with your audience, and to chat with you today.
Dana: Any time spent with you guys is always my favorite time, you know that. And we still have all of our feral footage from EMDRIA that my assistant and I are still sorting through, figuring out how to turn into something, because it's the funniest stuff ever, but nothing cohesive. Even watching it makes my stomach hurt from laughing.
Bridger: It has led me to obsess over your page, because I keep waiting for whatever version of clip is going to come out.
Dana: Caleb's are usually my favorite. The stuff Caleb threw out was gold. I'm waiting for a trend to come up so I can say, "That's going to go really well with that trend." Thank you guys so much for being here and for sharing your time and your brains. I appreciate you more than you know.
Bridger: Thanks for having us, Dana.
Jen: Thank you so much.
Podcast Outro
Dana: Thank you, everyone, for listening to another episode of The Truth About Healing podcast. I'm your host, Dana Carretta-Stein, reminding you that we repeat what we don't repair. See you on the next one.
Dana: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Truth About Healing podcast. If you know someone who's still stuck, share this episode with them, because as you know, the truth can set them free. And if you're ready to get started and see what you need to repair, contact us at peacefullivingmentalhealthcounseling.com and we will get you started.
Dana: Until next time, I'm Dana Carretta-Stein, reminding you: we repeat what we don't repair.
Podcast Disclaimer
This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health or medical advice. Listening does not create a therapist-client relationship. If you need support, contact a licensed professional or your local emergency services.
Crisis Support: If you're in crisis, call or text 988 in the U.S. or contact your local emergency number.
Transcript lightly edited for readability while preserving the meaning and conversational tone of the original recording
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We repeat what we don't repair.
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